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Bill Lampton: Hi, there. Welcome to the Biz Communication Show. I’m your host, Bill Lampton, the Biz Communication guy. Every week, hosting a conversation with an outstanding business communication expert so that you and I can learn tips and strategies that will boost our business. Today, it’s an absolute delight to host again, as he’s been our guest several times, John Ray, coming to us from the Greater Atlanta Metropolitan Area. John Ray works with consultants, coaches, attorneys, fractional executives, and other professionals who sell expertise. He helps them diagnose and express their value, price accordingly, and build business through trust, not pressure. He’s the author of the five-star rated book, The Generosity Mindset, which redefines generosity as a professional asset, not as giving everything away. So, I know that you will join me in welcoming our expert for the day, John Ray. Hello, John.
John Ray: Bill, what a delight to be with you, as always. Thank you for having me back. I really appreciate that very much.
Bill Lampton: Well, I— I benefit every time, and I know that our viewers and our listeners benefit as well. You have built a wide reputation, John, as an expert on pricing. A topic that really, until you tackled it, I’m not sure that I heard very much advice about that. And I think of how [laughter] I could have used that advice three decades ago when I launched my career as a professional speaker, consultant, coach. And like many people, I was ready to take a fee, [laughter] not recognizing that there were options. So, one of my first uh questions, which I think our viewers and listeners will want to know is, what prompted you to get into the topic of pricing, to study it closely and carefully, and then to teach many hundreds through your seminars and through your book? To teach them how to maximize the rewards for the service that they provide. What prompted you to do that, John?
John Ray: Well, that uh— that is an easy ans— question and answer for me. Basically, uh skinned knees and— and uh t-shirts in the drawer of— of bad pricing, bad engagements. Uh you know, I— I— I came out of corporate like a lot of people do, uh that don’t really know how to price their expertise, and they don’t know that they don’t know that. Um you know, they— they do what I did, which is kind of use others as a benchmark. And when others uh are pricing inadequately, that by definition, that makes your price inadequate. And we all suffer from that. And so, I saw this problem with my clients as well. And so, I got passionate about it. And— and the— the thing about it is, this— this is not information that— that is widely available to uh small business people and— and particularly expert service providers, like consultants and coaches and fractional executives that go out on their own, like I did, to uh and they’ve got a particular expertise, and they start their business. And, you know, there— there are just not a lot of resources immediately available. There are plenty of good ones out there, but they’re just not immediately available to uh people like us. And so, that’s what got me passionate about it. I went uh down that bunny trail, you might say, learning. And uh eventually, that led to me really focusing my practice around that and, you know, writing the book.
Bill Lampton: So, as you say, you really tackled what was a needed topic, but in many ways a neglected topic. And as I said a minute ago, I really had not heard much about pricing services until I started attending your seminars and then soon after that, reading your wonderful book, which we will talk about. What, John, are some of the pricing mistakes— two or three that you see entrepreneurs, solo practitioners make? Who— um tell us what are— are some of the mistakes that you run across commonly with your clients and talking with people individually? Tell us— tell us what are some of the mistakes that you— you not only identify, but you help correct?
John Ray: Yeah. So, I— I call them the red flags of inadequate pricing. Uh that’s my nomenclature for— for it. And uh you know, one of those is hourly pricing. If you’re pricing by time, pricing by the clock, uh your— your price by definition is inadequate. Um uh pricing is an input. It’s not— ha— has nothing to do with the outcome that the client receives— the transformation you bring. And it’s genu— genu— genu— generally— I’ll get that out in a second— very uh ha— ha— has no relation whatsoever and— and and much, much uh smaller than a lot of clients would be willing to pay when it’s calculated that way. Another few that I see are uh when— when an expert service provider accepts every client that comes their way. I mean, by definition, your price is too low because some of those folks that are coming your way are price-sensitive. They’re— they’re— they’re uh cheapskates. I mean, they— [laughter] they want to get something for as little as possible. And uh most clients aren’t that way, but some are. And so, if you’re pricing such that every client that comes your way, you’re accepting, what that means is uh your price is not high enough to— to drive away the price-sensitive clients. There’s a couple of them right there.
Bill Lampton: Thank you for those. I— I think, John, about, for example, the profession that I know quite well because I’ve been a part of it for three decades, and that’s professional speaking. And there are so many people who cannot understand how, if a professional speaker is hired to speak at a conference or a convention, and they show up, and they’re there, and they give a one-hour presentation, why are they paid $7,500 or $10,000, or if you’re a celebrity speaker, why are you paid $25,000? And people in the mindset, that’s pricing by the hour, and they— they just don’t get it. Um But this moves us to a key point, which you make in your book and in your presentations, which I’ve been privileged to attend. And that is that we’re pricing by results. We’re pricing by benefits. For example, I— I would even take it down to— to the level of the guy who comes and fixes my washing machine. And, you know, he— he charges me $200. And somebody will say, “Well, my gosh, that guy makes $200 an hour.” I’m not paying him for the hour he was here. I’m paying him for the fact that I can use my washing machine again. So, elaborate on that and tell me if I’m on target with that.
John Ray: Uh Well, absolutely. I mean, you’re paying— you’re paying him to have uh uh to get rid of those piles of dirty clothes that have been piled up, right? [laughter] Waiting— waiting to get him in there. Uh yeah, you’re paying for uh um uh peace of mind. You’re paying not to have to go down to the laundromat, right? You’re paying— there are a lot of things that you’re paying for beyond just the fix. And that’s, I think, the— the real I think, the— the— not— not secret, but the— the insight here is that clients see more value in us than we see ourselves. I mean, we look at our uh deliverables. Um you mentioned the speech. You know, the speech we give, and we don’t see the other intangibles that we bring to the table that clients willingly pay for and, for a lot— for— for most of them, are most important— most important, maybe even more important, than the deliverables themselves. Uh I mean, for example, someone that’s booking a speaker, they’re running a uh convention, a— a uh uh, you know, three-day kind of uh a workshop opportunity for their association. What are they looking for? I mean, they’re looking for happy association members. And so, when they come out of that speech uh— when those members come out of that speech with uh Dr. Bill Lampton having presented, what they want to hear is, “Wow, thank you so much for booking Dr. Lampton. He was fantastic. You know, I’m going to implement a lot of his ideas.” And uh that’s what they’re looking for, right? They’re looking to help deliver a little bit of transformation to their association members. So, it— it’s not about just the heads in the room or— or or uh the— as you say, the length of time. It’s about what does that speaker booker— what— what do they see in in terms of the outcome that’s going to occur because they hired Dr. Bill Lampton?
Bill Lampton: Lois Creamer, John, is one of the— the most uh relied upon experts on what’s happening in professional speaking, since we’re talking about that. And one of the changes that she emphasizes, you know, every time I see her on LinkedIn or Facebook, is that what people are looking for now is not just a— a feel-good speaker, a motivational speaker. Right. They’re looking for a problem solver. Um And I know when I’ve talked to you before about pricing, one of the points you make is that as you’re talking with a prospect, you can help them estimate the value of implementing your services because of the problems it helps them solve and, therefore, they’re economically better off, right?
John Ray: Yeah. It’s— it— it’s— it’s what you’re able to do because your problem is solved. So, I mean, let’s take an example of a fractional CFO who saves their client uh let’s say $100,000 because of a project that they have done. It’s not just the $100,000, it— it’s what the $100,000 enables a company to do that they couldn’t do before. So, what are you going to do with that $100,000? Is the question that CFO— that fractional CFO should be asking. Uh “What’s that going to enable you to do that you weren’t able to do before?” Um Hire uh maybe a salesman or two that uh are going to help your bottom line? Well, okay, that’s great. So, wh- what will that do? I mean, what will they bring in? Uh how will that change your business? “Well, you know, it’ll help increase our revenue by whatever percent we think.” Um “Ah! Well, what would that— what would that do for you? I mean, where would that get you as a company?” See, when you start asking these questions and being curious, digging a little deeper, what you find is that the value of what you deliver is not just the $100,000 of savings, as great as that is, it’s what comes out of that. And the value of that is much more significant than uh what we think going in. And that’s the value of questions.
Bill Lampton: And what we really need to get across to our prospective clients is that we’re not an expense. We’re an investment. Um And we’re an investment that pays off. And it’s— it’s uh during our exploratory conversations with them, we get to the point where we illustrate how our service for them is a great investment because there will be returns, and efficiency, teamwork, and that good old word, “profit,” correct?
John Ray: Correct. And— and I think what we are doing there is it’s not just about, you know, how do you talk a client into hiring you? It— it— it’s part of it, Bill. I think, and you and I have had this conversation before, several times. It’s about the mindsets that we bring to the table, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, we— we have these mindsets of of inadequacy and imposter syndrome. And when we have clients telling us that, “Hey, these are the results I got from working with you,” um “and I what a great investment this was,” I— I think that is what you can lean on instead of those uh ugly little voices in your head that tell you you’re not worthy. Uh Lean on what the clients say. Um And and that changes your language from language like um uh being a cost or being a burden to being an investment, to— to representing a return, representing transformation for someone that’s been uh stuck for a while.
Bill Lampton: And we are the objective voice that comes in and helps them discover those items. John, uh in a minute, I want to talk about something that I adopted from you. And your book and your seminars have been a great value to me. And one of the greatest strategies that you taught me, and you’ve taught now many hundreds of others, is about the three levels of pricing. So, we’ll get back to that in just a second.
[Commercial Break]
Bill Lampton: You’re with the Biz Communication Show. I’m your host, Bill Lampton, the Biz Communication guy, and our distinguished guest today is John Ray, author of The Generosity Mindset. Before that short break, John, I mentioned that traditionally, of uh until you [laughter] and other experts started advising us, traditionally, we would present one price for our services when we were talking to a prospect. And yet, you have great rationale, which I want you to share with us, on why instead of giving one price— this is the price, take it or leave it— why we give three pricing levels instead.
John Ray: Yeah. So— so, just to be clear, I mean, I didn’t um make this up. I mean, th- this is— this is one of these patterns you see in the business world that when you see it, you can’t— cannot unsee it anymore. Um um Many successful companies have implemented a good-better-best kind of pricing model, uh where “good” is kind of the basic, uh, you know, “better” is a little bit good, kind of in the middle, and “premium” is for those what I would call velvet-rope clients. I mean, they want the— the full um experience of what it is that you can offer. And what— what the value of options are is that different— it helps you align your services with the idea that different clients have different values. I mean, there are some that come to you and they want just the basics. They want to be able to um consume a little bit, um get what they can get out of that, and move on. There are others that, um, they want the full experience that you can give them. I mean, every— they— they love what you do, um they’re— they’re— they want transformation quickly, uh urgently, uh they want to make it happen, and they want to pay up to— to get that. Then, there are some that are in the middle. I mean, they— they want uh— they don’t want the basic, uh but maybe they don’t want to pay for the premium or or um they’re not as anxious, uh maybe to have that transformation as some of the premium clients and, you know, they would buy a uh uh, in that good-better-best construct, they would buy a better option, that middle option. So, what you’re doing is aligning your offering with the idea that different clients have different perceptions of value, and you’re giving people choice. And this just in, uh choices are empowering. People love choices. And when you’re having a conversation around choices, “Which one of these packages makes the most sense for you?” then it’s a collaborative conversation, not a “yes” or “no” to the one offering that you’ve given someone.
Bill Lampton: Well, I— I— I know too that um there’s no way of truly estimating which category our potential clients fit, and so that’s why we give them the choice. I remember very well, John, you gave an illustration in one of your seminars that I attended that car manufacturers don’t just [laughter] just uh give us one level of car and that’s it. No, you— you have the low, medium, and the top quality, and you can choose which ones you want. Right. And there are those who could not afford or don’t see the need for the top quality, but would be very happy with that middle item, which meets their budget and meets their— their aesthetic requirements too, right?
John Ray: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we see this with uh automobile manufacturers. You can look at their websites and see this. Uh We see it with uh fast-food places. I mean, when you go through a a fast-food uh establishment, what do they have? They have their traditional offerings, uh they have a value meal often, and they have some sort of premium, uh limited-time offer, right? And and so, they have essentially a good-better-best kind of model. They don’t call it that, but that’s what they have. And what it does is it appeals to a lot of different buyers at different— that are at different price points, different willingness to pay.
Bill Lampton: I want to get, before we conclude, I want to get to a discussion about your book, The Generosity Mindset. John, I think I wore out two or three highlighters when I read this book. [laughter] And I noted this morning that there are 88 five-star reviews of the book on Amazon. I was privileged to even post a video review there. And the reason I took the time to do that was because the book was for me a turning point professionally, and I’m sure that’s the case for many readers. Tell us, two things— give us a quick, please, overview of what the book will help us accomplish, and then secondly, how we can get the book.
John Ray: Sure. Well, and thank you for your support. I mean, I think you were maybe one of the first, if not the first review that I got. I— I haven’t forgotten that, [laughter] Bill. So, thank you for that.
Bill Lampton: I was the most eager, that’s why. [laughter]
John Ray: Well, thank you. Um Yeah, I think a couple of things. I mean, one is is— is that the book starts out with those mindsets that hold us back. And when we’re pricing our expertise, it— it’s a personal thing. I mean, we’re pricing what comes out of our head, what’s— what’s between our ears, and it’s highly personal. It’s— it’s not uh like pricing a product that comes off an assembly line somewhere or out of a factory. Um Um In our case, the factory floor is between our ears, and that gets personal. And what that brings in is those mindsets that I was talking about earlier that that hold us back, that cause us to um not think of ourselves as worthy sometimes, or not— not pricing to the level that we ought to price at. And— and so, the question is like, how do you deal with those mindsets? And what the book makes the argument for is that clients see more value in you than you see yourself. And so, if you are willing to lean into that and understand that, and understand what clients see— that it’s about client-perceived value, not what you think. What you think is not material. It’s what they think. And what— and the beautiful thing is what they think is— is wonderfully— it— it’s— it’s empowering for you if— because they do see more value in you than you see yourself, and if you price into that value, ironically enough, you’ll be charging better pricing than you would if you just relied on falling back on those old nasty voices in your head.
Bill Lampton: Yes, we have to change our mindset, and your book is the— is the playbook for doing that. Tell us how we can get the book, John. I know I mentioned it’s on Amazon. It’s in paperback. Is there a Kindle version also?
John Ray: Yes, there’s a Kindle version. Uh Yes, so you can get the book on Amazon. If you— I— those of you that want to uh patronize your local bookstore, feel welcome to do that because you can uh find it or or order it there. Um You can go to the generositymindset.com to learn more about where to buy the book, and and there are some free resources there, including uh the Red Flags of Inadequate Pricing that I mentioned earlier, uh help you kind of self-diagnose whether you’ve got a pricing problem in your practice.
Bill Lampton: I encourage our viewers and listeners, if you’ve not had the advantage of reading that book and learning how to improve your pricing, how to improve your conversations with clients, and how to overcome some of the thoughts that have been holding you back, get that book today. John, please tell us your contact information.
John Ray: Thank you, Bill. And thank you again for having me. It’s always a delight to be with you. I really— It’s my delight, as well. Yeah, I really appreciate you. Um Yeah, I would love to hear from folks directly. My email is john@johnray.co. Feel welcome to be in touch with questions or comments. And my website is johnray.co, uh so you can uh find out more about me and the work I do there. My blog uh is there as well, that gets regularly updated. And uh feel welcome to follow me on LinkedIn, JohnRay1, where I post a lot of uh information around and— and thoughts around value and pricing. And uh I also have a podcast that’s devoted to this uh area of my work, The Price and Value Journey. So, you can find that wherever your uh— where you consume your podcast.
Bill Lampton: Thank you for that. And— and certainly, if you’re on LinkedIn, John Ray is a person you want to connect with. I— I know, John, you were at Vanderbilt. You were— what was it? English and Economics major, was that your double major?
John Ray: That was it. That was it.
Bill Lampton: And the English certainly shows up [laughter] because you— you write so well um quite a number of times a week, and I benefit and readers will, too. So, be sure to connect with John on LinkedIn. And now that John’s given his contact information, I’m happy to give mine. My YouTube channel is Bill Lampton, PhD. I’ve been posting instructional videos about communication there since 2007. Don’t look back at any of those, please. And in the last 8 years, I’ve gotten away from giving just my own guidelines, but I’ve been hosting the Biz Communication Show video podcast, which you’re partaking in now. And so, I invite you to subscribe to my YouTube channel. And then as for my website, I’m— my tagline is the Biz Communication guy, so go to bizcommunicationguy.com. And while you’re on my website, there’s a chance there, an opportunity for you to subscribe to my podcast, which I hope you will do. I welcome inquiries by telephone: 678-316-4300. And I will talk with you initially without any financial obligation. I’d like to hear your communication problems and strategies, and determine whether I’m the consultant to help you with them, or if not, who I can refer you to. And then, I certainly want to recognize the co-producer of this show, um Mike Stewart, based in Nashville, originally in Gainesville, Georgia, with me, where I’m still based. And John has been my marketing and technology advisor and guide since 1978, and I still rely on him heavily. His website, localinternetpresence.com. John Ray, I think of the— the information that we’ve covered, what— what might be a nugget or a capsule of— of information that in a minute or a minute and a half you could leave with our viewers and listeners?
John Ray: Well, wh- when you hear the ad— the advice that it’s not about you, you think that’s negative, and in this case, it’s ironically a positive. Um, you know, a lot of us have grown up with mindsets around money and worth and uh, are we worthy? We, you know, we have imposter syndrome about the work that we do, particularly if we come out of corporate and we’re on our own all of a sudden.
Bill Lampton: Which happened with you.
John Ray: Which happened with me, and uh, a similar situation with you, you came out of academia and, and, you know, you’re out there all of a sudden on your own, right?
Bill Lampton: In unknown territory. [laughter]
John Ray: [laughter] And in the— in the wilderness, uh it’s so unknown. And um you let those mindsets that are— those voices in your head, and what’s been drilled into your head, um work on you. And here’s the good news. There’s an antidote to that. It’s— it’s leaning into where— where clients see value. And if you um lean on that, understand that they’ll tell you where they see value. Look at how they review you, how they uh what they write in their testimonials. Um The questions— the quality of the questions you ask, and your ability to be curious will help you dramatically in terms of learning where they see value and pricing into that value, and pricing more adequately than you ever have before.
Bill Lampton: And John, one of the— the great revolutions that I think you’ve brought into discussions about dealing with clients, you just mentioned questions, and that’s the value of listening. So, many decades people went in and they had a spiel and they gave the spiel, and they wondered why they were ushered out the door with a polite handshake. [laughter] Yeah. And sometime, the next time I host you, I would like to spend the entire half hour talking about the power of questions and listening, and reflective listening, because those I know from your book and your coaching, those are very central to the success of the entrepreneur, aren’t they?
John Ray: Well, they are. And uh I would welcome that because I’m always learning about that, uh Bill. And I think the point is is— is that we overestimate our ability to listen, even if we’re practiced at it, even if we’re intentional about it. The studies show this. So, this— this is not— this is something that we all have this in common, that— that we overestimate our ability to listen and understand what people are saying to us, both uh coming from their mouth and then coming from other ways that they communicate, right? And so, um I think that’s a really important piece of being able to diagnose clients and to price effectively.
Bill Lampton: I came across this not too long ago. Larry King, who co— uh hosted 7,000 guests during his career on Larry King Live— many of us remember his shows— Larry King said, “I hosted 7,000 people, and I never learned anything while I was doing the talking.” [laughter] That’s a good thought for us to close on. And in closing, I certainly want to join you, the guest, in thanking, as I know you want to, John Ray, author of The Generosity Mindset. A tre— John is a tremendous asset to everyone who reads his book, attends his seminars, or meets with them individually. Thank you very much for being with us, John.
John Ray: Thank you again, Bill. I appreciate you and your work very much. Thank you.
Bill Lampton: And thanks to our viewers and listeners. Invite you to be with us again next week for another edition of the Biz Communication Show. I’m your host, Bill Lampton, the Biz Communication guy.
